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Morlicar
02-14-2009, 10:27 PM
I calculated all of the values I know about (Units, and buildings/infrastructure) and verified no construction and no trading occurred on this turn.

Based on my calculations:
Unit Maintenance Treasure costs = 104
Building Maintenance Treasure costs = 409.5
Total Treasure Maintenance Costs = 513.5

mineral production: 178.5
Jeweler production: 1070.4
Total production = 1248.9

From this I would think that my Treasure would increase by 735.4.
Instead, it increased from -109.3 to 0. Only an increase of 109.3.

Even if my militia are being counted and rounding up to 200 men (and assuming they are no more expensive than my most expensive unit, at 2 treasure per militia), I should still see an increase of 335.4. Either there is something wrong, or there is something else I'm currently unaware of.

Other numbers are different than I expect as well.

Lumber: I expected production of 66.9 less maintenance of 148.2 = -81.3;
the game produced -21.3

Stone: I expected production of 83.6 less maintenance of 85.7 = -2.1;
the game produced 51.9

Metal: I expected production of 736.1 less maintenance of 529.7 = 206.4;
the game produced 127.4

Treasure (already documented in detail above)

Armor: I expected production of 794 less maintenance of 189.5 = 604.5
The game produced -313.

Weapons: I expected production of 437 less maintenance of 51.2 = 385.8;
The game produced 38.9

Bows: in agreement

Horse: I expected production of 892 less maintenance of 120 = 772
The game produced -160

The only item that was in agreement between what I expect and what was produced was Bows. No unit had bow maintenance costs associated with them, so I expect there is something about the way maintenance is computed that I do not yet understand.

With regard to the bows maintenance costs. One unit probably should have had a maintenance cost, but did not. The unit was my 2nd infantry. Part of the purchase price of a new recruit to that unit is 25.2 bow, but the maintenance cost is 0 bow.

Merlin
02-14-2009, 11:38 PM
I'll have a close look at this. And perhaps create an "audit screen" that shows much more detail about the economics in the process.

Merlin
02-15-2009, 02:51 PM
I revamped the City Details, and the way the numbers are calculated and presented to make it more clear what is happening. First, a late addition to economics was that even resources produce a little without any development. This never made it into the details screen until now, so there is a small amount of production that is now visible. Land and Forest produce food, timber produces lumber, rock produces some stone, lode some metal, and ore some treasure.

The details now show the end result of the whole calculation, including the multiplication by the number of your developments. You'll see that change once you take your next world turn. (I'll have to add to the TO DO list to have more information in HELP so you can see what something will cost and produce before you build one.)

This doesn't fully explain the discrepancy, but it is some of it. I would suspect that the unit and equip costs are the source of the remaining difference between what you would expect and what you see.

Morlicar
02-15-2009, 09:56 PM
First, thanks for looking into it.

Second, the City->Details tab is a lot cleaner. I like the change.

With regard to the discrepancies, the treasure thing is particularly vexing and what I noticed first, as I once had a fairly large surplus being generated. I've added some buildings (mostly bakeries and jewelers, as I have constant food problems and trade has been iffy lately), but the added treasure cost of those buildings does not come close to explaining why I'm generating so little treasure relative to before.

I checked the rest of the values (except food, as I don't know the consumption rate(s) for that resource) for completeness sake.

Merlin
02-15-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm not going to stop the audit. I am also a little confused as to why treasure has declined. The next thing I'll tackle is the Unit page, perhaps adding a Cost summary for all units or something like that. We could use some tools to help validate our economic calculations, too.

Morlicar
02-22-2009, 03:39 AM
Did you do something to the production rates?

The last turn I took this night had the production rates of {Armor, Weapons, Bows, Horses, Magic} increase by various factors. For instance, I'm at 92.2% efficiency and have 1 Weaponsmith. On prior turns, production was about 500 x efficiencyfactor; this last production phase it was 925, so it basically doubled.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I just wanted to make sure this was an intentional change; or if this was a fluke.

It appears that, other than the things in the set noted above, the rest of the production values are unchanged.

Merlin
02-22-2009, 02:03 PM
We're evaluating the production and maintenance values, and did reset the production of armories, weaponer, and etc. We're also trying to get a handle on other maintenance costs. Some of those were excessive, and were reduced. Your game is what I've been looking at. You should be able to support your army with only a little work, without going to zero every turn.

There will be a news update today highlighting the changes.

ckohr530
04-22-2009, 04:15 AM
I need so more explination on maintenance
1. when looking at the combat page I see zero for treasure on my characters but the help says it should be higher
2. I am useing the following bows
a.) 40 long bows 1600 arrows
b.) 28 Lt crossbows+1 590 bolts
and my maintenance for bows is - 4400 for last month
this has gone up 400 a month without me adding any bows

I can't gather enough of any other material to find out how much i need to keep it from going to zero but guessing from the bows(actual v. stated maint from combat) I would need 7+k armor, 2.2k weapon, 4.4k bow, and 4.3k mount for maintenance of my 101 army does this seem right?

ibukovec
05-11-2009, 02:19 PM
Im not sure where to put this question, but at what rate should the production (logging, mine, quarry) and the manufacturing (Smelter, sawmill,...) be. Im confused with the numbers in detail. Reading through the forum i guess they show net walues of finished goods, but nowhere i see the rate i need.

Eudrick
05-11-2009, 11:23 PM
The rate of production is adjustable on the main city page. You can adjust in increments of 25% from 0 to 100. They are preset to 100% and will produce the maximum they can, allowing for lack of some other resouce (lumber, stone, metal, workers, and treasure). Be sure to save the page if you change them or they won't take effect. If you're not getting enough production to stay out of the red in a category then you probably need to develop more raw and finishing resources. If the issue is workers (you need more than you have) consider ratcheting down production on those resources for which you have a large stockpile for a few months until you get more immigrants (the trick to getting imigrants is LOTS of food). Raw into finished goods is about 2-3 to 1 (3 mines 1 smelter) but can vary a lot depending on the size of the lode or mine. My rule of thumb is to use the raw production numbers found on the details page to dictate the number of finishing units I need. Merlin and the rest of the programing crew ARE working on the maintainence (like the development) list for all the items, and it'll show up in help eventually but until then we'll just have to guesstimate.

Merlin
05-12-2009, 12:53 AM
Production is also adjusted by efficiency. There is a flow-chart in HELP that shows where goods come from and flow to that may help you understand a little better. I have on my list of things to do to make a really detailed ledger of all production and consumption for the number crunchers, but other priorities have kept us all busy.

ibukovec
05-12-2009, 05:47 AM
I saw the flow chart, but how much raw ore (wood, iron...) can be processed by one sawmill (jewler, backer....)

Merlin
05-13-2009, 01:14 PM
Those developments don't really "consume" raw materials, though they probably should. They do add extra value to each month's production.

ibukovec
05-17-2009, 06:56 AM
In other words its better to produce manufacturing buildings since they use less workers and give more production (in my xp at least).

Ivan

ibukovec
05-19-2009, 02:33 PM
I would like to make a sugestion. U should implement that u cant have more Manufacturing building the raw material production buildings. So if u have 3 Quarry u cant have more then 3 Mason....
This should balance things a little, or none would build Agriculture, Timber, Quarry, Metal or Mineral mine (uses to much workers and has a smaller output).

Merlin
05-19-2009, 02:51 PM
I'll look into that. That would be logical, and balance the production better.

Eudrick
05-19-2009, 04:04 PM
I would like to make a sugestion. U should implement that u cant have more Manufacturing building the raw material production buildings. So if u have 3 Quarry u cant have more then 3 Mason....
This should balance things a little, or none would build Agriculture, Timber, Quarry, Metal or Mineral mine (uses to much workers and has a smaller output).

DANG! You know I like to look for the cheats (not for the cheaters, Ivan). How the heck did I miss this one? All the money I spent on poppy fields and I could have just set up the labs. Nice catch there!